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Post by eausavage on Mar 14, 2011 19:56:31 GMT -5
Ok seems we're debating about Josh, so here what i think, i know how could it be between brothers and sisters as i have a twin sister an a littel sister as well, and i don't bond at all with her, my little sister, she nevere supportd me, but i still have to handle deling with her as she's my sister...i think it's the same for Jamie, it's not that he wish to support his younger brother, mainly he's baring Josh, it's a big difference... Josh is shity, mean and i don't see allway how he support Jamie,he's just buggin him most of the time, campig at Jamie house, he don't care that he have to work... he's such envy about Jamie that have a girl, he've just in Jamie house and do nothing, just complain about him, and pretend from him, for some new girls whom he can sleep, and so it goes... Josh have a miserable life, even if he's rich, and married with a stupid woman totally surgerelled, that stay with him just for money, it's such clear to me. Josh has an obvious inferiority complex in relation to Jamie, Jamie is brilliant, intelligent, likes to women, and is sociable, Josh is just a talented programmer, but cynical, arrogant, and short led for social life.He have no friend that can give him shelter?If he've went to Jamie surely he hve nobody who cna confort him, when his wife booted him off. He didn't dare to put Jamie in bad light during the dinner to parents's home, sure he's such proud for his first important business, that is his night, what better opportunity to humiliate his older brother by putting him in trouble? About masturbation scene to me it's too much, too odd, i don't think that between male could be different..i guess it's the mark of the character but i don't like that scene, how he talked about Meggie's breast, but also about Jamie body, revolting.... I really didn't imagine that sevaral have negative opinion about Josh, and i'm sorry to be such harsh, but that's how i feel towards him, also when a charater is part in a movie, then there's nothing wrong in saying that you liked or not, and if in your POV, like me in first istance, it's usuless to the movie, well Josh is in my opinion.
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Post by Sasha4Jake on Mar 15, 2011 3:18:21 GMT -5
We hadn't had a good movie discussion in some time (since BBM actually), so YEAH! i have ... a littel sister as well, and i don't bond at all with her, my little sister, she nevere supportd me, but i still have to handle deling with her as she's my sister...i think it's the same for Jamie, it's not that he wish to support his younger brother, mainly he's baring Josh, it's a big difference... Though Josh was so annoying, Jamie treated him as a little brother. Sometimes they were even cute together. One moment they were fighting, the other somehow supporting or helping. I think that having Josh as a brother is annoying and Jamie spoke about it too (Why do you sleep on my couch, I thought you were rich?) But there have been times where Josh supported Jamie. - Josh made the connection to the Pfizer rep so that Jamie could start working for Pfizer. - Josh drove Jamie to the hospital while - clearly - he had "better" things to do. As much as I like Jamie, I am not sure he would have left Maggie in an instant, if Josh had needed the same. Josh has an obvious inferiority complex in relation to Jamie I totally agree, but I guess that was part of their family. Everybody tried to outrival the others, even their dad tried to make a point how he is better than he children (I don't have to get my hands dirty anymore.) He have no friend that can give him shelter?If he've went to Jamie surely he hve nobody who cna confort him, when his wife booted him off. I think it was never just about shelter. Josh could have easily stayed in a Hilton hotel for weeks at a time, he sure has the money to do it. I think it was really for the comfort that he expected to get from Jamie (You're my big brother.) I also did see some development in Josh's character. At first he was envying Jamie for sure - as Maria pointed out with the dinner scene. But when he realised that he (Josh) didn't want to have Jamie's life anyway, realising that this empty sex he was envious of all his adult life didn't really do anything for him anyway, he left his envy behind. When Jamie then get's the call he's going to Chicago, Josh says "I am so proud of you. I expected it, but I am so proud." and I do believe him when he says it. There is noone around that could have heard it, making Josh lie because it's the appropriate thing to say. I think he really meant it. That masturbation scene was odd for me to. I wouldn't be able to watch my brother' sex scenes. But maybe between the guys is different, I don't know. About masturbation scene to me it's too much, too odd, i don't think that between male could be different.. On this I have to agree with Maria, I don't think so either. I guess it wouldn't have hurt the movie if that scene was cut, but it didn't put me out of the movie either. i'm sorry to be such harsh, but that's how i feel towards him, also when a charater is part in a movie, then there's nothing wrong in saying that you liked or not When the movie is good enough to take me to the journey, I take characters as they are. ... I've just bought all the story, without thinking, what I would change in it. I guess you and I have a slightly different approach to watching movies than Maria or other people (that's why you - Mermon - and I like PoP so much ;D) and there is definately nothing wrong with either side of it. Imagine how boring this would be if we all had the same opinion!
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Post by eausavage on Mar 15, 2011 13:10:13 GMT -5
well i still think that it's all about convience for Josh. Josh is one of the flaw af the movie, his charater is simply a waste of time for the audience. Sure he get in connection Jamie with Pfizer rep, but i'm sure that Jamie begged him so many times, i'm not positive at all about Josh, sure have asked something back, to Jamie, in fact he'll going to his new home withput daring to give Jamie a call, to aks if he can give him hopsitality or not. Josh IMO didn't give Jamie a call as he well known that Jamie put him down and honestly?I can understand him..... About outrival the others in Jamie's family sure, his father is such proud of Josh, and Josh didn't loose the change to strut about, and he underline in every single way possible that he was the richest, the most skilled, the most inteligent and so it goes... When Jamie and Josh talked alone on the terrace, Josh didn't loose a chance to criticiezed Jamie, linked obviously to the sex factor...he's sick... Josh went to Jamie home as he save time to chatching for some friends that he clearly haven't, and can give him hospitality,think about who's the one to blame...he need support as his marriage is over.... Josh can stay in Chicago but wouldn't, as he felt humiliated and know that everyone laughing behind his back, he have some serious addiction to ponography as this was the main reason why his wife booted him off, that's why he moved. Oh sure he need comfort, what?He never gave for the entire movie confort to Jamie, he seemd happy that Meggie breack-up with him, tsè...and forced Jamie to joint the party so ha can have some sex with some easy girl, the less is to drive for Jamie and bring him to hospital in the end.... Josh wish just to live Jamie's life, but he cannot as he's an asshole. I'm sure that Jamie wouldn't leave Maggie if Josh was i need, i don't see why he have to, i mean if we make some assumptions Jamie never asked that much to his little brother,and i'm sure he never asked nothing if he was in need, i'm not sure but i have the idea that Jamie is quite indipendent guy.... Just some friendly compliments, and some nice words, ralated to himself BTW, and about Josh sexual life, doesen't change the fact that is an useless and annoyng quite weird character... About Chicago, i think he cannot told anything different, i mean what Josh can say? -"Wow so now i know you're usefull in something the just having sex around.I hate you, you know you have just luck, don't you?" Defintely i think debating about characters is positive, as in that way we can keep record why we thing something different form each othre about the same movie. Personally i try to make some specuations,and some assumptions, i'm not basing my opinion just about how characters act, i follow my insights.I'm fine that other think and fee differently then about movies.Just my tow.
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Post by els on Mar 15, 2011 16:02:59 GMT -5
Wow interesting debate, ladies I agree with Maria, that the Josh character is annoying most of the time and quite selfish too, and a perv (I mean, masturbating while watching the sex vid from his brother and Maggie WTH?! I think that's really sick! If he wants to satisfy his sexual needs, there are enough porn vids and magazines he could buy or lend at a videostore...) I also agree that the Josh character could've done with less movie time. Indeed, I totally agree! If we would all think the same about everything, we would not have such interesting debates Yes I agree with that. But still, it doesn't make him an interesting nor a necessary character in the movie, to me. I agree with Maria, the movie could've done with less of Josh...
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Post by mermon on Mar 15, 2011 17:36:46 GMT -5
There are two different issues in our discussion here. Acceptance of the presence of the character and liking the character. I accept the idea of Josh as Jamie's brother, watching the movie I didn't think if he was necessary or not. He was a family background, just like their parents or sister. I have to admit, I didn't like him too much. There were funny moments between them, but as a human being - he was annoying. Revealing the fact Jamie lost his job at the family table. Behaving like a child, very loud when Jake was on the phone with Maggie, masturbating to Jamie's sex video, that's all I remember now. I think he was a contrast to Jamie, more ugly brother, but more successful. Mainly because of Jamie's character - if he wouldn't want to show his parents, he wanted to live different life - he would have been a fine doctor, I suppose, which he probably will become eventually, as we may suspect from the end of the movie. Josh with not such a success with women, in that field in Jamie's shadow, envying him all his empty short "love" stories, hasn't having idea, that Jamie didn't find any happiness in that. And discovered a shallowness of it after his own experience at the pyjama party. Maybe at the same time making Jamie realised the same thing in the conversation in the car.
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Post by mermon on Mar 15, 2011 18:22:15 GMT -5
- I think he supported him in some way, letting him stay with him, just giving Josh what he needed - his presence, company, ears to listen to Josh' weeping. Even when he was with Maggie, he stayed with him. He agreed to go to the pyjama party, only for Josh. He was taking him to clubs, giving him a chance to meet people, despite Josh was annoying, but he was his brother. Of course, when Jamie was mad at Josh he was just showing/expressing that, . - was he really married? I didn't cached it up. I thought she was his girlfriend. - absolutely. Like Sasha said, not only we were annoyed by Josh, but Jamie was annoyed by him, as well, but despite that, he took him under his roof. Jamie was good man, with good heart, somehow different from the rest of his family, he was quite emotional. Masturbation scene - I heard about it few times before I watched the movie - of course some critics, I was imagining it was really seen on the screen, but it was not. So comparing to what I was expecting, it was not so bad as I thought. But of course the fact was disgusting, but it didn't have any influence on liking the movie. - for me it was very childish behaviour, not really hurting Jamie. I don't think Jamie envied Josh anything. Maybe it was a matter of his positive character. Maria - you have some right points about Josh. You really seem to dislike him a lot. that's absolutely fine. Some characters are created in that way, we just can't like them, that's normal. But should he be in that movie or not, that has nothing to do if we like him or not. Me personally - I can't say I dislike him, he didn't awake such strong negative feelings in me. Like I said before, he made me laugh, he annoyed me sometimes. His character allowed Jamie to show us his character, his reactions. - I think, at that point we agree on that, all of us. - Some scenes wouldn't exist without Josh , like pyjama party, Viagra overdose, a ride to the hospital, hospital scene, cause Jamie went to that party, because of his brother. Probably Jamie wouldn't never be a successful pharmaceutical comp. rep. without Josh, so he would never meet Maggie, find his love, find new confidence, become a better man, become a doctor. At least not in that story. I would say Josh had some influence on Jamie's life.
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Post by eausavage on Mar 15, 2011 19:52:09 GMT -5
Well i don't like that we still underline that as a character is in a movie we can dislike him or not, but we cannot stated that movie would be better without him. Josh is one of the flaw of the movie, really, in some scenes, the most umbalanced parts are mainly with Josh, and he isn't that much funny, the converse he's very very irritating. I don't stating that as i wish more of Gyllenhaal or Hathaway, simply the movie could make less of Josh as character in the whole. In my POV also Josh haven't any kind of developing during the movie. What changes he have?He lead Jamie to hospital while he've having a viagra overdose and blabbling about him most of the time? It wasen't that great developing, IMO, sure also some nice compliments, i don't think it's enought. This character born and died bad, i think that director could find a better way to depeloping the story. Sure we know in the end that Jamie wish to been a doctor but quit, as simply he never had any kind of support from anybody among his parents, but i doubt that we discover all of this due to Josh, that would be an excessive forcing, is Maggie that pushed Jamie to try, no other then her. It would be a forcing as well make assumptions that if Josh didn't get in contact with Pfizer rep all the movie would be different, surely Jamie could joint Pfizer the same, and meet Maggie in a different way. ;D Honestly dabating about some naive assumtion, basing mainly on common way that two brothers tend to support each other just as they have a kinship it would be too easy. Jamie didn't support Josh, just he's forced to give hospitality to Josh, he find his brothers on his apatment door...he have no choice...just assumptions... Also i don't see nothing like support between the tow brothers....sure he have some influences in Jamie's life, mostly negative, that's sure. Maybe you're right that Jamie and Josh they are opposite and converse, one a great comunicator and good playboy, the other a skilled programmer, but that's doesn't change my opinion that Josh is useless as character, and i found him grothesque....not funny for sure. Jamie wouldn't go to the party, he's intent to say no when Josh, with some really good manners, take off from his hands the phone, and mobbing his voice say that he'll going to joint the party, and bring some nice friends with him. What the heck Josh would be the nice smath boy?tsè....just to have sex, and that's all, he don't care at all about Jamie, he's just a way to obtain sex... Josh has really some problems with sex, he talked about making sex with girls everytime, always, bugging on Jamie, and the masturbation scene with Jamie and Maggie video that making sex, is just another dop in the bowl, even if we didn't see Josh having masturbations it doesn't mean that he isin't a disgusting perv, i cannot find anything good at all.... I can do less of all those scenes honeslty, the party, the viagra overdose, the ride to hospital, the fake and superficial compliments of Josh, and i find it such awuful that he've stay like a parassite also after that Jamie quite his job to Chicago and stay with Maggie, but Josh get a life and leave your brother alone..... Definitely the few "good" thing about Josh aren't enought to find in him a sort of developing, nor i according him some good influences in Jamie's life, i cannot see allway any positive in him.Just my humble opinion of course.
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Post by els on Mar 16, 2011 13:53:08 GMT -5
I agree with you.
Totally agree!
I agree!
Totally agree!
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Post by eausavage on Mar 16, 2011 13:55:46 GMT -5
thanks for sharing some of my points Els, i'm glad to exress my POV a bit better ;D
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Post by Sasha4Jake on Mar 16, 2011 16:31:18 GMT -5
I guess you're right, since it's a made-up story, they could have found a different way to make these things happen without having Josh there.
But to me LOAD is like PoP - they both may have their flaws and the screenplay may not be the best, but they are the kind of movies I like most and therefore they both will remain on the top positions of my personal Jake-chart. That is until I see Source Code. I have a feeling either or both will have to move down a notch...
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Post by eausavage on Mar 16, 2011 19:13:17 GMT -5
Ok well there's some little misunderstanding then, Even if i post my review, and i've stated that LAOD isn't well balanced in all some scenes, and that i dislike Josh as character that's doesen't mean that i don't like at all the movie. I just wish to be open at 360° to the movie, and put down all my thougths and impression about it. Surely it's a good movie but for my taste isn't at the top of fav Gyllenhaal's movie, if i have to file one nor even BBM was too higth in first 3 places, mainly this are just taste, everyone have personal impression or feelings realted to movies. ;D
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Post by Sasha4Jake on Mar 17, 2011 2:24:45 GMT -5
Surely it's a good movie but for my taste isn't at the top of fav Gyllenhaal's movie, if i have to file one nor even BBM was too higth in first 3 places, mainly this are just taste, everyone have personal impression or feelings realted to movies. ;D That's true, there really is a lot of personal taste in that. Yesterday I read on WDW that Kate (the blogger) has already seen Source Code and that in her mind it's the best Jake movie ever. Her favourites so far (Jarhead and Zodiac) had to move from the top to make way for SC!
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Post by eausavage on Mar 17, 2011 9:16:02 GMT -5
Well just taste at least, i doubt that Jarhead would sliding down to make room doe Sorce Code, accoring to my taste of course, as SC is a movie based on fantasy, instead Jareahed is based on a real story, but before make some statement, i'll going to see how the movi hit on me! Just out of curiosity and to make a different point actaully Zoloft is much more better for people affected form depression then prozac as medicine, persona knowledge.
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Post by els on Mar 17, 2011 11:43:49 GMT -5
To me there was no misunderstanding, Maria, I think you've explained yourself very good indeed and I agree with most of the things you've said I have the same feeling as you do about LOAD: it's a very good movie, but sometimes a bit unbalanced, and it's a pity really, because imo, with a few adjustments (to make sure the movie would get more balance), it could've been a really excellent movie I think that's great! I like to do that too Very interesting to look at a movie at 360°! Indeed, you've said very well! I've got the same feeling about it My personal favourite Jake movies are (in that order): Brokeback Mountain (my all-time favourite movie, together with Room At The Top, which is not Jake-related, but I wanted to mention it because I love that movie -and Laurence Harvey and Simone Signoret- so much , Jarhead, The Good Girl, Love & Other Drugs, Rendition Oh Maria, I'm very sorry to hear this, because I assume this means you needed or need to take that medicine... I hope you are feeling good now! <3 *UN ABBRACCIO FORTE!* I've had a very bad depression that lasted three years (from 2000 - 2003)... I didn't want to take any medicine, scared of the side effects (I'm very sensitive to all kinds of medicines). I'm happy and proud I got through without them
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Post by mermon on Mar 17, 2011 18:20:43 GMT -5
els - - congratulation els! I think it needed a strong will and it was not easy. I know someone who is on pills more than 20 years. I think that depression is hard to cure if someone is still in circumstances which caused the illness, like that lady I know, she was in miserable marriage and under strong pressure at work and she was very sensitive. So it was hard to get cured.
eausavage - I had no doubts, that we discussed about you not liking Josh while liking the movie, but maybe not unconditionally.
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