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Post by els on Feb 3, 2011 1:15:56 GMT -5
I disagree with you. Either a person is gay or isn't. Imo there's no way a hetero can suddenly "turn" gay. Even if, like you say, your first experiences are with a person of the same sex, that doesn't mean you're gay. Some people like experimenting (with both sexes). Those experiences don't "change" who you are, I mean, if you're gay, you're gay, and if you're not you're not, and no sexual experience is going to change you from gay to hetero or suddenly make a hetero turn gay. Another possibility is that you like both sexes and then you're bi. But that's it, imo, either you're hetero, you're gay or you're bi. If we look at Ennis and Jack, they're gay, but they don't even think about that, because society told them they must marry a woman, and that being gay is bad, is wrong. So society "forces" them to have hetero relationships and hetero sex, and even if their first experience would've been with a woman, it wouldn't 've made them hetero. Imo they had sex with women because they tried to be what society told them they must be. Ennis much more than Jack, because Jack imo must've known he was gay, even if he didn't exactly know what being gay meant. I think both their relationships with their woman are clearly wrong and unhappy; Ennis having anal sex with Alma, Jack having sex with Lureen but imo it's because he sees in her a way out of his poverty. You can see clearly in some scenes they are missing eachother. If it would've been just sex on BM, they wouldn't have missed eachother so bad, their reunion kiss says it all, imo If Jack was bi, like you say, why did he go to Mexico then to pick up a male sex worker (I mean, I can imagine Jack being really desperate doing that!)? He was married to Lureen, if he would've been bi, he would've had sex with her, could've enjoyed having sex with her, but clearly he didn't, as he clearly was missing much sex - with a man. And even if it would've been just a "missing sex"-life with Lureen, he could've went out to meet other girls, to have sex with, but he didn't; apart from Lureen, we only see Jack flirting with men; and the flirting with Lureen didn't mean anything imo, with her he just saw a way out of his poverty... Just my pov
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Post by Sasha4Jake on Feb 3, 2011 4:44:10 GMT -5
As for Jack's death I just wanted to add this, I found it very interesting:
I think it was Ang Lee's point to not state clear facts but to get people thinking. And obviously it works!
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Post by Sasha4Jake on Feb 3, 2011 5:09:52 GMT -5
I guess we have to remember that in rural America in the late 60ies LOVE was not necessarily a concept connected with marriage. You just had to get married and have children or something was wrong with you. I guess this is one of the reasons Ennis was so blown away by his feelings for Jack. He had already planned to marry Alma and from his talking about her she wasn't the love of his life. Because that's not what he was looking for. Then along comes Jack and boom! He finaly understands that there COULD be more to life.
I agree that to Ennis having sex with a woman didn't mean betrayal but a man did. I agree with that. Remember how mad he got when Jack told him about Mexico? At first I thought too that Jack had affairs with both the woman and Randall, but Els got a pretty good point in her last post. I guess I agree with Maria that Jack told him about the affair with Randal making it look like it was a woman...
I guess it's the beauty of the film that it leaves so many things unsaid that everybody can fill the gaps with the things most important or agreeable for oneselfs. That's why it's so appealing to so many people. If you want to believe that Jack was bi - go ahead, you'll find plenty of hints to go with. If you don't want to believe that Jack was bi - there's enough to fuel this theory as well. I haven't seen a lot of movies that have left this much room for the viewer to make himself at home.
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Post by els on Feb 3, 2011 5:22:58 GMT -5
I think so too; indeed it works! Very good point, Sasha, and you've described it very well! I totally agree!
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Post by eausavage on Feb 3, 2011 8:36:45 GMT -5
I disagree with you. Either a person is gay or isn't. Imo there's no way a hetero can suddenly "turn" gay. Even if, like you say, your first experiences are with a person of the same sex, that doesn't mean you're gay. Some people like experimenting (with both sexes). Those experiences don't "change" who you are, I mean, if you're gay, you're gay, and if you're not you're not, and no sexual experience is going to change you from gay to hetero or suddenly make a hetero turn gay. Another possibility is that you like both sexes and then you're bi. But that's it, imo, either you're hetero, you're gay or you're bi. If we look at Ennis and Jack, they're gay, but they don't even think about that, because society told them they must marry a woman, and that being gay is bad, is wrong. So society "forces" them to have hetero relationships and hetero sex, and even if their first experience would've been with a woman, it wouldn't 've made them hetero. Imo they had sex with women because they tried to be what society told them they must be. Ennis much more than Jack, because Jack imo must've known he was gay, even if he didn't exactly know what being gay meant. I think both their relationships with their woman are clearly wrong and unhappy; Ennis having anal sex with Alma, Jack having sex with Lureen but imo it's because he sees in her a way out of his poverty. You can see clearly in some scenes they are missing eachother. If it would've been just sex on BM, they wouldn't have missed eachother so bad, their reunion kiss says it all, imo If Jack was bi, like you say, why did he go to Mexico then to pick up a male sex worker (I mean, I can imagine Jack being really desperate doing that!)? He was married to Lureen, if he would've been bi, he would've had sex with her, could've enjoyed having sex with her, but clearly he didn't, as he clearly was missing much sex - with a man. And even if it would've been just a "missing sex"-life with Lureen, he could've went out to meet other girls, to have sex with, but he didn't; apart from Lureen, we only see Jack flirting with men; and the flirting with Lureen didn't mean anything imo, with her he just saw a way out of his poverty... Just my pov I totally agree with you els, surely the first sexual experience that Jack and Ennis has with girls, Ennis never thinked he could be love a man, he've discovered with Jack, quite true, but when you love a man, you're homosexual, it donsen't make any importance who you believed to be, Ennis is a different man, and love a different human being. Even if don't like that scene, Ennis puched a wall and got bad, crying when he've splitted form Jack when summer works up to Brokeback Mountian is over. For Jack i guess isn't such different, he've tried with girls, the naturally swift to boys, also he has have to learn how andle a sexuality that isin't such common in '60's, but in several time he show to be much more sure about his sexuality, he know what he want, who' like him, clearly Jack is sure about is homosexuality, and didn't try to hide it, he've also facev Aguerre, he've quite cocky in that scene as well when he've tried to stir rodeo clown's attentions. Agree as well with Els about the Mexico, is Jack was bisexual, man or woman dosen't make difference, so why go wth a male sex workers?Nor a woman sex worker? Jack claerly married Luereen to escape form his finacial issue, have soemthing sure and an easier life, money ar importnat, but he'll never quit to find Ennis, he've never give up, if he was bisexual at least he could playing aorund with othre woman in Texas, so to my POV Jack is homosexual and have he's accept himself for who he is.
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Post by eausavage on Feb 3, 2011 8:43:14 GMT -5
As for Jack's death I just wanted to add this, I found it very interesting: I think it was Ang Lee's point to not state clear facts but to get people thinking. And obviously it works! I think let it open a question about Jack's dead was the intentin of director, as well in the book the Jack's dead is quite a mystery.... I belive thta Lureen belived what someone told her about how Jack is die, she's touched when finally head some Jack's friend, i thinked that she knew Jack's have soem othre relationship, but i'm sure if she finally realized that Ennis was the other, the call beteween both-Ennis and Lureen-is strange, there's tow human being that loved for an entire life the same man, and both well know this in my opinion....
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Post by Sasha4Jake on Feb 3, 2011 8:45:29 GMT -5
I think that Jack is a totally different person from Ennis. He seemed to be going after what he wanted much more than Ennis. I really love the scene where he fights with his FIL over the TV on thanksgiving. The smile on Lureens face made me think that maybe there was more to their relationship. Like she could respect him more for standing up to her father. But most of all, Jack was just trying to keep up the fasade, to conceil his real love.
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Post by eausavage on Feb 3, 2011 8:49:37 GMT -5
I guess we have to remember that in rural America in the late 60ies LOVE was not necessarily a concept connected with marriage. You just had to get married and have children or something was wrong with you. I guess this is one of the reasons Ennis was so blown away by his feelings for Jack. He had already planned to marry Alma and from his talking about her she wasn't the love of his life. Because that's not what he was looking for. Then along comes Jack and boom! He finaly understands that there COULD be more to life. I seocnd this, it's so true, man takes wie,and buld a family as tha is the way it works in '60's in rural american country.But what Ennis feel for Jack is devastating, it's deep, and he cannot helped himself, he haven't the will to let him go, or quit him, but he isin't strong enoguth to make some change, iy's impossible thinking this in Ennis POV. Thanks so much Sasha, i'm gald you share my thoughts, i've laredya pointed about Mexico, about Randall's wife, i guess he's kind as Lureen was such mena wth her, she poke her for the eintire dinner, maybe Lureen think that she've flirting with Jack, but Jack staring at Randall only...nad Randall gosh etaing with his own eyes Jack.. Definitely i agree with you, everyone could have a differnt opinion and it's fine like this, everyone bond with this movie in different way, so opinions are different.
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Post by els on Feb 3, 2011 8:55:43 GMT -5
I totally agree with you!
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Post by eausavage on Feb 3, 2011 8:56:05 GMT -5
I think that Jack is a totally different person from Ennis. He seemed to be going after what he wanted much more than Ennis. I really love the scene where he fights with his FIL over the TV on thanksgiving. The smile on Lureens face made me think that maybe there was more to their relationship. Like she could respect him more for standing up to her father. But most of all, Jack was just trying to keep up the fasade, to conceil his real love. quite good poit Sasha, Jack try to lifted up his relationship with Ennis on an higther level, Jakc try several times to make some change and get out of brokeback mountain trap...he wish a real realtionship, not just some day to spend together a couple of time for year... i always thinked that Jack in thanksgiving scene, is definiely tired, tired of his familiy life, and of his father-in-law, tired af all the sacrificee he've faced to going on with Ennis, he's tired, sorrowed, embittered, he's unhappy, unhappy with Lureen, unhappy with Ennis, unhappy allway, and IMO he wish to change, in that moment...maybe he've staretd thinked about divirce form Lureen at that time who knows...
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Post by els on Feb 3, 2011 8:59:53 GMT -5
Indeed. At that moment, I know from reading the book, Ennis thinks that he's just sick from something he ate - it is only later, when he finally sees Jack back again, after 4 years, that he realizes the real reason he felt so sick then...
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Post by jakesgirl on Feb 3, 2011 10:15:14 GMT -5
You are making a really good point here, Jakesgirl Indeed, it's the pressure from society then, that makes them take these wrong decisions, and we know it's wrong, and deep down, they do too, but it's stronger then themselves I think. We can say it's bad but we don't know what we would've done, had we been in the same situation; one never knows until one is in it imo. I did feel sorry for the wives but I noticed that deep down I just wanted Jack and Ennis to be happy together and I thought a bit less about the wives, even though they're as much a "victim" from the pressure from society, as Jack and Ennis. agree! you understood my point. and yes youre right, wives were as much victims of society as jack and ennis. but somehow i thought wives had more opportunities to do otherwise....but im not sure. like you said we havent been there so we dont know for sure how it was back then and to be in that situation yes, agree with you totally! its not easy!!!! not for anyone. and in this story especially for ennis it was really hard. I just wanna say you are very intelligent els!!! I really like your thoughts on things. not just on this topic but on other things as well. I can see you have lots of life experience and you understand people and life I guess it's the beauty of the film that it leaves so many things unsaid that everybody can fill the gaps with the things most important or agreeable for oneselfs. That's why it's so appealing to so many people. If you want to believe that Jack was bi - go ahead, you'll find plenty of hints to go with. If you don't want to believe that Jack was bi - there's enough to fuel this theory as well. I haven't seen a lot of movies that have left this much room for the viewer to make himself at home. i agree with you!!! everyone can make their own interpretation about this movie and this is one reason why its so good. I think they both where gay...not bi-sexual. to say it shortly: jack was willing to accept this and lead the life he wanted, ennis wasnt...based on his earlier life. There are two schools about gays or two ways of becoming gays. One - you are born to be that way, and second one - if your first, early experiences are with the persons of the same sex. hmmmm...where did you get this idea? I have always thought all gay people are born to be gay...hmm how can you tell if some experience has changes you that much? or did you had that experience cause you already were gay?...how can you tell the difference and how early on age we are talking about anyway?
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Post by mermon on Feb 3, 2011 10:46:25 GMT -5
jakesgirl - I am not sex expert, I may be wrong. I think that in early teenage years were you are not stable yet, with subtle sexuality still waiting to have its full power, young people shouldn't experiment with it. In modern times when nothing is forbidden, many staff are allowed, when alcohol and drugs are so common is easy to loose your right path. Youngsters make fun of it, play with it. They don't care. Everything mixes up. And maybe it's not possible to become a real gay, but a person, who can do both things without thinking to much about it. Sex is sex. It gives you a pleasure. If the pleasure comes from the person from the same sex is still a pleasure. I am a mature person, when I was very young, those things were very mysterious, it was easier to grow straight. Now it's treated too light, I think. I know it from talks with my daughter. I think a homosexuality is still a mystery to the science.
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Post by mermon on Feb 3, 2011 11:05:14 GMT -5
eausavage - thank you for that link to deleted scenes, I found many interesting things there. I will paste few lines that I found interesting. About the beginning of the movie, which I like very much -
About the scene from the beginning - when Jack shows off on the horse and Ennis watches him -
About the morning after the first tent scene - “
About Alma -
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Post by mermon on Feb 3, 2011 11:39:59 GMT -5
One more quote: Many (of us) believe that Jake Gyllenhaal’s very best acting is done through sublime facial expressions, often citing the shot where Ennis is bathing, “or I might be back,” the Jimbo cruise, the reaction to Randall’s come-on, and the Dozy Embrace, among others. Each of these gestures is reductionism at its finest. If the story and script are beautifully tight, and they are, Gyllenhaal’s powerfully sparse facial gestures more than do justice to them.
Jake Gyllenhaal, once asked about Jack Twist’s fate, replied famously, “Jack died when Ennis left.”
As we leave Jack, it is hard to focus upon anything other than his youthful energy and forceful spirit. He showed Ennis the tireless patience and sensitivity of a man deeply in love. Jack consistently sought the best in life, refusing society’s unrelenting urge to accept “beans.” Derided, humiliated as a dreamer, a “fuck up,” a “pissant,” Jack remained proud, hopeful, and strong. - isn't it beautiful?
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