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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 19:00:49 GMT -5
Elsi could sign under that. And I agree with all your post. The thing is Jack and Ennis never really admitted they were gays, they didn't feel that way. That's why it was obvious to them to get married like all the other people did. I'm still not sure they were or they were not. I think Ennis would never be with a man if he would never have meet Jack. For me he was a kind of hetero who fall in love in someone who happened to be a man. In the book he says - "I like to do this with women, yes, but nothing is like that". But he was not able to do this with other man than Jack. Jack, I think was bi. He needed to have male sex in his life, more than Ennis. He also had women - lovers. Maybe he was doing that from missing Ennis. Probably he needed sex more often than Ennis, who eventually, stayed alone, not looking for anyone. Personally Jack isn't Bisexual at all, it's something that i read frequently and frequently i disagree, he've getting marrieg just for ecomonomic benefits, why not, and aslo to try to oging on, and find a sort of normal screen, at that time was quite comon that man get a wife, otherwise you're not sane.But Jack feel really different, he need to have sex with othre mans just cosue he miss Ennis, and also as having sex with Ennis maybe wasen't all that he need from him, when you're far away orm the one who loves,you miss badly, and hardly and even havin sex with someone else could helped you out going on. The movie dind't show Jack having other woman the his wife, so to me she's the only one, since he've married, even when Jakc talks about a lover to ennis, h'es clarly referring to Randall, that he starts to see after the benefit ball in '79.jack clearly can accpet that he's homsoeual, thta he's attracted form man, and why not even othre man besde Ennis. I mean this is a sort of commonway think that both aren't homosexual just cause tehy are both married.It's the society of that time that push man to take wife, as much as woman to take husband.I maen it's noaml build a family sooner or later. Ennis is homophobic with himself, and found the courage to be himsefl with Jack only, who trust, and on Brokeback mountain, where nobody could see, and nobody could know.Ennis having sex with his wife, even if he've humiliated her in intimicy, forcing her to anal sex, and to him that's acceptable, instead loving a man it's a sin, it's something he's not ready to adimit to himself. But when Jack found him, afetr 4 years, he'v immedialtely kised him, hugged him, he miss Jack, he's happy that Jack is there, and there there's no turning back, nnis cannot do less then Jack. This surely is love, but also proove that Ennis is homosexual, is due to his fears, his traumatic childhood memory that he cannot change, but Jack is strong enought to make some change, and as Jacks loves him, comfortably accept to see him few time in a year n Brokeback mountain... This is simply my opinion of course! ;D
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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 19:11:17 GMT -5
And one more thing. You may laugh, but I think there are people - men or women who may be appealing for both sexes. I think Jake is one of them. He's so charming and adorable, that when he chats with his male friends smiling in his own way he's really tempting. Of course not to everyone. And I'm not sure he's aware of that at all. Example: And Jack Twist, played by him, was like that. And Ennis fall for him and him only. In the book Jack was not so charming with his big teeth. Uhmmmm This is a photomontage actually, Gyllenhaal surely is really sexy and charming, no wonder that man and woman found him attractive!
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Post by mermon on Feb 2, 2011 20:18:43 GMT -5
Wow! after all that discussion I will look at the movie with fresh eye. I have to check that peeling potato scene. eausavage -
That I'm not so sure. Jack is only 19 years old. Remember his house, family, room, the view from the window? He didn't go to disco, didn't have too much chances to flirt with girls. We don't know that, but that is possible that his only experience was with some cowboy on Brokeback one year before Ennis. I remember Ang Lee saying that Jake and Heath were so appropriate for him to play their roles, cause they were innocent as they should be (they looked and behaved). That means that Jack was not spoiled, experience guy. He probably experienced something, we don't know for sure. They didn't have TV teaching about sex, magazines, I doubt the parents talked about it. They were learning from observing a nature. Jack was simply guy, accepting himself. If something happened previous year it was Ok to him. He was not so complicated like Ennis.
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Post by mermon on Feb 2, 2011 20:36:39 GMT -5
eausavage That's funny, how differently we see the same things. I'd rather see Jake like a big boy, liking to show off in front of other guy, like a young cock, to even impress Ennis, but not to get him, but to compete, to have some fun. He was so joyful and young in his behaviour. Maybe I am naive but for me he was funny and pure in some way. Later he became bitter, after years of waiting, missing and suffering. And swallowing his pride in front of his father in law. Do you remember how sweet and innocent he seemed in the car with Laureen. She was the one to be brave and knew what she wanted.
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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 20:55:40 GMT -5
All right girls, here it goes, I've seen the movie. In order to understand my view you should know that I was raised in a very catholic household with "old fashioned" morals. All throughout my childhood I have been told that there is only one place where sex is appropriate and that be in a marriage between man and woman. This resulted in me getting married as a virgin (which I don't regret). From my liking LAOD so much you can tell that I am not prude or anything, but some things just stick to the back of your head a long time... That's why I didn't watch BBM for so long. I was not sure I could really enjoy it. So finally, what did I think of the movie? It's special to say the least. The part that made me upset is that both Ennis and Jack cheated on their woman. Not because they were gay, just for them cheating. It would have upset me just as much if Ennis had cheated on Alma with a woman. I find Ennis betrayal worse than Jake's because Alma knew. She seemed to be a nice enough woman trying to make their life comfortable and for her having to see Ennis and Jake together broke my heart. Maybe it's because I am married and have little children myself, I don't know. Plus Lureen didn't strike me as the loving kinda woman. I know that's sort of a double standard but I just connected with Alma more than with Lureen. That scene when they first reunite, Ennis doesn't come home for the night and then quickly grabs his fishing things and almost throws Alma jr. at his wife had me crying really badly. They were both single at the time they fell in love and could have very well stayed unmarried, even if they didn't live together, but IMO they had no right to drag other people into their missery as well. That put aside - the love story between Jack and Ennis is amazing. Aside from the first tent scene that was kind of uncomfortable for me (mostly because it came so unexpected) the story was told in a very touching way. It didn't bother me at all that it was two men, their love and longing and pain was so real and heartfelt. That's why the reuniting scene is so hard to watch for me. My heart ached with Alma and I cried so hard, yet at the same time I felt so overjoyed for Ennis and Jack to finally see each other again. I had to watch it several times back to back to sort through my emotions. Heath and Jake are both incredibly believable. The one scene where Jack drives to Ennis and he is singing "King of the Road" - the look on his face is so special. I cried with him on the way back when he couldn't be with Ennis. I didn't understand why he drove to Mexico instead. I mean I got it on a mental level (he had his needs and needed an outlet for them) but not on an emotional level. Guess that's my childhood again. That's why I felt so much for Ennis too. All through the movie you can tell how much he wants to break free, to be as daring as Jack is, but the picture from his childhood, when his dad showed him that dead gay cowboy just never went away enough to let him be who he really wanted to be. I guess that's why he felt so miserable all his life. He didn't allow himself to be happy one way or the other as the guilt for being who he was just was too much. And being raised on strikt morals I can understand why he does that. I'm am over 30 yet I could not sleep with anyone I wasn't married too (regardless wheter I think it's right or wrong). Childhood morals stick with you for a very long time! BTW - Jake's parents creeped me out. They made me feel very uncomfortable and very sad for Jack. Looking at his room made me cry. What a miserable childhood he must have had there. My favourite scene is when Jack thinks back to their first summer on BBM where he has fallen asleep standing up next to the fire and Ennis puts his arm around him. They look so happy and so in love and PERFECT. That's what love is supposed to do to you: make the arms of your partner feel like paradise. I wanted to freeze time for them right there. As for Jack's death I am not sure: did he really die the way Ennis imagines or is it just because of his childhood experience? From Lureen's strange behavior on the phone I would say she's telling a lie and Ennis got it right. BBM will not be my favourite Jake-movie, I know that. There is just too much to go through emotionally to really enjoy it. Maybe I will watch it again in a couple of weeks. Right now I have no desire though. But all the praise it got was sure worth it. It was a lifetime performance for Jake for sure. He should have gotten an Oscar for it. I hope that he will be able to get a role this important in the near future again. Sorry for making this such a long post, but I couldn't have left anything out. Well Sasha i agree with your review, and i find very very interesting and important as well, that you've pointed about the bad behaviour of both characters. I explain better, Jack and Ennis surely starts something on Brokeback Mountain that both aren'r ready to handle, nor know how could ging on, it's fairly considerable that for both everything started and ends with summer works as shepherd, there, in the middle of mountain, it's accetable to both loving each other.As Mermon aleady mentioned in one her latest comment, for men, it's quite common, as in jails, or in conditions of geographical isolation, to having sex with each other just for physical urgency, only to release their instincts, without any emotional involvement. That's why the second sex scene is mainly important, thent the first, as audience see that there isn't just sex, or sexual intenton, there's much more, and both Ennis nad Jack well know this. More Ennis, that Jack, as i've stated he's much more minded open to accept that he's homosexual then Ennis, going on, once the summer works ended, and get back to his own reassuring everyday life. Ennis get Alma as wife, been father of tow stunning little gilrs, he's also quite kind and patience, but the intimacy with her husbans for Alma it's a pain, she've getting humiliated and forced to havins anal sex, but she've handled as at least she've felt ashamed, and aslo it's common for that time to pleasent as much as possible its own husband. Alma know nothing about th real desire of Ennis, also he never dare to speak about Jack, maybe cause he try to erase brokeback mountian memory, i don't know, she seems also happy when finally Jack send him a postcard, she's truly happy, then discover in that way, that everythig she've belived and everything which she's sacrificed for is a lie, it's really a slap in her face. Of course she's upset, and obviously it takes to hate Jack. Alma know Ennis before he leave for Brokeback mountain, and to her it's much more acceptable belive that is Jack to balme, that he has misled Ennis. No way that Ennis could escape from his own responsability. Jack it's worser, he've married Lureen to have a better life, and economical benefits, he isn't at all interested in her sexually, he's quite strained and embarrassed while having sex with her in the car, but he've going on as he try to saty in social line of the '60's, a man must have a woman, and get married, so did Jack. Lureen is sfore he leaves for brokeback mountain, so i guess Sasha is completely right about seen tow different side of Jack and Ennis, like coins both have two faces/life. Lureen is to blame?I don't know she din't take Jack's parts when her father is arrogant, but she've supported im when during the thanksgiving finally Jack breack and yells agaist him all his anger. But nobody force both, or at least they coudl split from each othre's wife once they've discovered that they love each othre, no matter if both are men...or cudl give it a try Indeed the movie is about Ennis and Jack secret and conflcited love, a love that word cannot accept, a love that dosen't dare to speak its name. Jack is more sure about who is, which are his needs, when he goes down to Mexico he need someone, Ennis sent him away, and this is hurted quite a lot,Jakc criyng in the car, it's such obviosu that he's hurted, it's noet easy handle thta your lover pushed you away with few harsh world, i'm on Jack's side, i will do exalcty the same if i was in his shoes, i didn't bond too much with Ennis, and at least i'd rather prefer Jack, that realese his desire, his urgency, istead of wating and waiting and didn't been able to make some change.Also Ennis have a relationship with Cassie, and hurted her the same way as he done with Alma, a betrayal is a betrayal, no matter is it's a man, or a woman. About Jack's dead i guess it's quite foggy how things going exacltly, we'll never know if it's just how Ennis figure the Jack's dead or it's the truth.... ufff sorry too verbouse...
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Post by mermon on Feb 2, 2011 21:01:20 GMT -5
eausavage - Exactly! I agree. - well, this we don't know. It could be. But do you remember that wife, she was so alive, I can easily imagine her flirting with Jack, picking him and becoming his lover. He was so much better than her gay husband! Cute, handsome, funny, charming. And it was a kind of entertainment for him in that empty life. Empty without Ennis love, always in the shadow of his father in law, without respect. So I think he had a wife and a husband. And he was bi to me. But it is so interesting film for many people, because we don't know all the answers, the movie doesn't give them. We may think different things about the same matter. - I didn't know that. Are you sure ? There are two pictures from that moment. Here's another one.
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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 21:11:20 GMT -5
Wow! after all that discussion I will look at the movie with fresh eye. I have to check that peeling potato scene. eausavage - That I'm not so sure. Jack is only 19 years old. Remember his house, family, room, the view from the window? He didn't go to disco, didn't have too much chances to flirt with girls. We don't know that, but that is possible that his only experience was with some cowboy on Brokeback one year before Ennis. I remember Ang Lee saying that Jake and Heath were so appropriate for him to play their roles, cause they were innocent as they should be (they looked and behaved). That means that Jack was not spoiled, experience guy. He probably experienced something, we don't know for sure. They didn't have TV teaching about sex, magazines, I doubt the parents talked about it. They were learning from observing a nature. Jack was simply guy, accepting himself. If something happened previous year it was Ok to him. He was not so complicated like Ennis. sure nobody teach him now to do sex, but sexual instict are much more strong in boy then girls, sure Jack hasn't seen much TV, as well as Ennis, funny as i know that in '60's TV was affordable for few, Jack is clearly much more sure then Ennis about his sexuality.He know he's attracetd by boy/man no matter how old he is, it's not a matter of edge, it's instinct, it's natual when i've spoiled my sexuality it comes naturally, no managazine, nor TV helped me out. I don't know whom Jack could have his first time with a boy, surely he have someone before meet Ennis, nobody offer himsefl as bottom,without having a previous sexual experience.I based my opinion just on the movie that i've seen in theatre. As Jack was a rodeo cowboy, surely he has have chances to trip here and there, far way form hom, in Texas he could has meet some nice boy, why not?
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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 21:19:29 GMT -5
eausavageThat's funny, how differently we see the same things. I'd rather see Jake like a big boy, liking to show off in front of other guy, like a young cock, to even impress Ennis, but not to get him, but to compete, to have some fun. He was so joyful and young in his behaviour. Maybe I am naive but for me he was funny and pure in some way. Later he became bitter, after years of waiting, missing and suffering. And swallowing his pride in front of his father in law. Do you remember how sweet and innocent he seemed in the car with Laureen. She was the one to be brave and knew what she wanted. No really, i don't share you point, but everyone have the right to have a different opinion, Jack in my POV was between the tow, the most strong, the most sure about himself. He've stared at Ennis even at first time in the review mirror while he've shaved, sure he try to been friendly with Ennis as he'll goj gto spend a lot of time with him, but the way he looks at him is quite evident, there's some interest in Jack, Also he try to get noticed, there was no reason to be in competition, he knew almost nothing about Ennis. With Lureen Jack is quite uncorfortable, as he's not used to having sex with girls, or at least isin't clearly his real sexual orientation... i remember that just few days before he've gived a tried with rodeo clown...just someone quite sure about himself do something like this a saloon/pub taking the chances that someone could beat him.... just my two...
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Post by mermon on Feb 2, 2011 21:22:11 GMT -5
eausavage - Yes, I forgot about that rodeo, bars. But if it would be so easy he wouldn't have to go to Mexico. But that was possible. Do you remember that guy from the bar, the one Jake wanted to buy a drink? It looked like he was trying to get more familiar with him and in the way that guy ran away, like he could look Jack through and knew exactly what he wanted from him. But it was after Ennis.
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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 21:27:12 GMT -5
eausavage - Exactly! I agree. - well, this we don't know. It could be. But do you remember that wife, she was so alive, I can easily imagine her flirting with Jack, picking him and becoming his lover. He was so much better than her gay husband! Cute, handsome, funny, charming. And it was a kind of entertainment for him in that empty life. Empty without Ennis love, always in the shadow of his father in law, without respect. So I think he had a wife and a husband. And he was bi to me. But it is so interesting film for many people, because we don't know all the answers, the movie doesn't give them. We may think different things about the same matter. - I didn't know that. Are you sure ? There are two pictures from that moment. Here's another one. Why you're so detemined to stated that Jack is bisexual, i don't get it, it's a no sense, Jack also went with sex worker, all men/boy so i don't get how he could it be bisexual, also he ahve no kind of intimacy with is wife, also there's a deleted scene where it showns Jack in his truck with Randall, so clearly have a realtioship with Randall, Jack cannot told to Ennis that he's having another man, so he speack of him alike he's a woman, he know that for Ennis it would be unacceptable... About the pic you've posted there's tow actually, and both are sick photomontage...
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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 21:34:56 GMT -5
eausavage - Yes, I forgot about that rodeo, bars. But if it would be so easy he wouldn't have to go to Mexico. But that was possible. Do you remember that guy from the bar, the one Jake wanted to buy a drink? It looked like he was trying to get more familiar with him and in the way that guy ran away, like he could look Jack through and knew exactly what he wanted from him. But it was after Ennis. i'm not referring to that scene specifially, i'm just pointing some good suppositions, as jack talks to Ennis about some rodeo done in Texas, so he has been there. The rodeo clown scene was after Ennis, sure Jack try to have a sexual encounters as that is his nature, and then he'v relaized how much could bedangerous. About Jack going to Mexico, well it's such simply, he know that in Mexico there's male prostitutions, he can easily pay and have sex, it's all that Jack need to push away his sorrow, and without the pain to approcing the worng guy, we're actually in '70's i belive, and it could be quite risky for him...
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Post by mermon on Feb 2, 2011 21:37:02 GMT -5
Well, I don' t see it that way, but even if so... Jack was there before, knew how the life in mountains looks like. He was young, he could think that's the way it should be. He could be used himself by some experienced shepherd. Maybe he was just checking if he would be able to like Ennis, to have a kind of common life, not because he knew, he was a gay, but because he supposed they would spend that summer like before them. There are two schools about gays or two ways of becoming gays. One - you are born to be that way, and second one - if your first, early experiences are with the persons of the same sex. And that could be a reason for both of them. Good night! In my country is 3:36 in the morning! ;D
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Post by mermon on Feb 2, 2011 21:41:09 GMT -5
Ok, one more answer. ;D I am not determined and I don't want to convince anyone, I just feel it that way. That's it. That is why I keep repeating this, but it could be differently. I think only Anne Proulx could answer that. - that's interesting, I didn't know that. Where did you see that scene? That we absolutely don't know. That is possible, but not sure. It never came to my mind before. You are just eyes opening. But I think i prefer to think in my old way. I certainly have to watch BBM again.
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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 22:13:11 GMT -5
Well, I don' t see it that way, but even if so... Jack was there before, knew how the life in mountains looks like. He was young, he could think that's the way it should be. He could be used himself by some experienced shepherd. Maybe he was just checking if he would be able to like Ennis, to have a kind of common life, not because he knew, he was a gay, but because he supposed they would spend that summer like before them. There are two schools about gays or two ways of becoming gays. One - you are born to be that way, and second one - if your first, early experiences are with the persons of the same sex. And that could be a reason for both of them. Good night! In my country is 3:36 in the morning! ;D well about the review mirror scene it could be like you said!Jack staring Ennis as he'll going to spend the entire summer wirh his up on mounain, why not, but theres's something in the way Jack looks at him that have sexual vibe, oh maybe it's me, i'm a bit too much malicious maybe.... ;D About been homosexual, i think you coulnd't become just as you have few experince, i don't think for Ennis ans Jack works in that way.I don't think they'll going to spend an entire life try to keep it up this feeling, adn that going across a lot of pain and suffering juts cause they start a sexual realtioship on some mountain. The movie show to audiance about tow man that loves each othres, for almost an entire life, that are real man, a bit rought, but truly in love, and also how things could be hard, and going wrong, till the tragig end....
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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 22:37:11 GMT -5
Ok, one more answer. ;D I am not determined and I don't want to convince anyone, I just feel it that way. That's it. That is why I keep repeating this, but it could be differently. I think only Anne Proulx could answer that. Honestly, as i'm quite stubborn i totally get your point, it's fair, and to me it's fine too, that we have different opinion, to me Jack isn't at all bisexual, but then even if Proulx herself-and i can take her statemet with coldeness, as screenplayer based the plotin just on her short story- tell me that Jack Twist if bisexual, i remain stuck with my opinion, as it's just personal in the end, how you bond to movie, supposition and canjecture it's based about this. ;D Sadly that scene is unseen still, even if sevarl have asked that this scene was included in the DVD, i'll going to post the link where all cutted and deleted scene are listed, here: www.findingbrokeback.com/Deleted_Scenes/_Deleted_Scenes_Frame.htmlThat we absolutely don't know. That is possible, but not sure. It never came to my mind before. You are just eyes opening. But I think i prefer to think in my old way. I certainly have to watch BBM again. [/quote]
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