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Post by jakesgirl on Feb 2, 2011 11:11:17 GMT -5
thanks for your review sasha! very interesting thoughts about the movie. this is why its interesting to discuss about movies cause everyone has their own pov and history and everything....I guess I look at this movie from different pov cause Ive been raised in liberal family etc but you made me think some things that never crossed my mind... and hi meron! nice review I can see you really like BBM! I want to give my view to cheating discussion. I dont know why but I didnt feel really really bad for Alma and Laureen...I know its not right that ennis and jack cheated their wives! Its not nice and fair and everything....But if the society was different around them Im sure they would have not married at all! Sure they would have been able to stay unmarried and not hurt other people but...I think it was very common to get married back then. Im not sure but maybe staying single would have raised suspicions in people too. And I guess like you said especially Ennis tried really hard to be "normal" and hetero. All in all it was really different era compared to where we live now. So I think its a little blame for society too and Im pretty sure that if it would have been real love between them and their men....real emotion, intimacy, affection, deep emotions, LOVE...but it was not. Like I dont know how to explain but didnt they notice (wives) that this is not true love !!!?? cause it just cant be true love between them. I mean the kinda passionate love ennis and jack had together. I know its sad and not easy (especially back then) but people really sould listen to their hearts and not just settle for the next best thing. This is just a nother agle to look at this....not the whole truth but just a view to add to this discussion.
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Post by els on Feb 2, 2011 13:53:46 GMT -5
Yes, I've said the same thing to Maria too, she's so good with words, that I can see the scenes she describes before my eyes ! Personally, I'm very sure Jack was attracted to Ennis earlier. If you look at every detail, you can see that during the potatoe peeling scene, Jack continues peeling, he knows Ennis is naked but he doesn't dare to look, however: you can see him sigh, that sigh says a lot imo I think Jack is scared to come out for his feelings for Ennis, and to peak, because he is kind of scared to "scare" him away and he doesn't want that... (on the contrary) The alcohol certainly did play a part, I think. I think Jack didn't "plan" anything, it just happend on that moment and he felt he could "grab" that moment as an opportunity, but rather instinctive than planned. Just my interpretation Yes I think the same about it: beautiful, awesome chemistry and extraordinary acting!
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Post by els on Feb 2, 2011 14:15:06 GMT -5
You are making a really good point here, Jakesgirl Indeed, it's the pressure from society then, that makes them take these wrong decisions, and we know it's wrong, and deep down, they do too, but it's stronger then themselves I think. We can say it's bad but we don't know what we would've done, had we been in the same situation; one never knows until one is in it imo. I did feel sorry for the wives but I noticed that deep down I just wanted Jack and Ennis to be happy together and I thought a bit less about the wives, even though they're as much a "victim" from the pressure from society, as Jack and Ennis. If there wouldn't have been such pressure, Jack and Ennis would 've been together (or if Ennis would 've been more courageous, they could've moved to another place, where their love would've been accepted and they could've lived together and be happy) and they wouldn't have married Lureen and Alma and wouldn't have hurt them (although I can imagine, Alma would've been hurt when Ennis would've told her he couldn't marry her because he was in love with Jack)... Yes I'm right there with you when you say I know its sad and not easy (especially back then) but people really sould listen to their hearts and not just settle for the next best thing. ! But indeed, not easy, especially for someone like Ennis with his "trauma" of seeing the dead gay man and his character, not really very courageous... About their wives not noticing: I think, especially in that time, woman didn't really know what "gay" meant or what it was, so they didn't think about the possibility of their husbands being gay. Of course, after a while some things are becoming a bit more clearer, when Alma sees the reunion kiss and when Ennis is talking on the phone with Lureen... And especially in Alma's case, I think she was raised to be a "good serving wife" for her husband, she really tries to do everything well but indeed doesn't get from Ennis what he gives to Jack; and then when she sees them kissing, she doesn't dare to speak about it with Ennis because I think she's quite scared of what he could do (he's quite rough and tough and isn't scared of fighting and hitting), it's only when she's becoming "involved" with Monroe, that she finally dares to speak to him about -how she calls him- "Jack nasty"...
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Post by mermon on Feb 2, 2011 14:24:04 GMT -5
els - - i have to look at that scene again, i missed that sigh! You may be absolutely right! I didn't think about that. By the way, I was charmed by their behaviour, how they were washing themself, their clothes, dishes - such cute, clean boys. You could expect that cowboys don't care too much for that, but not our boys!
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Post by els on Feb 2, 2011 14:39:06 GMT -5
I missed it too during the first viewing but I saw it during the second viewing, it's very subtle, but it's there I know Indeed it is xxx
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Post by mermon on Feb 2, 2011 14:58:45 GMT -5
Elsi could sign under that. And I agree with all your post. The thing is Jack and Ennis never really admitted they were gays, they didn't feel that way. That's why it was obvious to them to get married like all the other people did. I'm still not sure they were or they were not. I think Ennis would never be with a man if he would never have meet Jack. For me he was a kind of hetero who fall in love in someone who happened to be a man. In the book he says - "I like to do this with women, yes, but nothing is like that". But he was not able to do this with other man than Jack. Jack, I think was bi. He needed to have male sex in his life, more than Ennis. He also had women - lovers. Maybe he was doing that from missing Ennis. Probably he needed sex more often than Ennis, who eventually, stayed alone, not looking for anyone.
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Post by Sasha4Jake on Feb 2, 2011 15:20:11 GMT -5
I read an interview with Jake and he said in his opinion Jack and Ennis didn't know they were gay, meaning that they didn't know what being gay ment. That it was just not something you were back then. And they both say so in the movie (I'm not queer. Me neither. or something along those lines).
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Post by els on Feb 2, 2011 15:51:08 GMT -5
You've got a very good point there! I think you're right: Ennis probably wouldn't be with a man if he wouldn't 've met Jack. I don't know about him being actually hetero turning into gay (I believe a person is either hetero, gay, or bi), personally I think he was gay but didn't know it, but that's just my opinion He's so introverted, and scared of his own feelings, and it's because Jack is so extroverted, patient with him, and kind to him, that he begins to trust, to confide in Jack and he begins to develop deep feelings for Jack, feelings he's never had before -not even for Alma imo- and he's so very scared of and he will be struggeling with for the rest of his life... At one point (their last meeting) he says something like "why don't you let me be?! I'm nothing, I'm nowhere! It's because of you I am this way, Jack!" But I don't think that's fair (although I can understand him from his pov). I think he was gay but didn't know and meeting Jack and falling in love with him has made him feel those feelings, but he's just so scared of them... However I do feel for Ennis, it's heartbreaking to see him struggle like that and in pain... I think the same way about it: Jack clearly needed sex more often than Ennis. Thanks for telling this, I didn't know that I believe especially Ennis didn't know he was gay -even if he feels such deep love for Jack, he won't admit it, won't even think about the possibility, of which he's very scared-, I think Jack maybe did know he was gay -especially after the Brokeback experience with Ennis-, although maybe he didn't quite know exactly what "being gay" meant. But that's just my personal opinion About And they both say so in the movie (I'm not queer. Me neither. or something along those lines). It always felt to me like deep down they knew they were gay (even if they didn't really know what that exactly meant) but saying this, they were trying to deny the fact that clearly -after the first tent scene- they were attracted to eachother (gay) - even if the alcohol played a part in it... Then the second tent scene proves how deep and pure their true feelings for eachother are... but it's just my interpretation
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Post by mermon on Feb 2, 2011 18:01:42 GMT -5
Well, maybe we should have the men in that discussion. I believe men are different in sex, than us, women. They just need that without a lot of thinking and emotion. They can do it easily without love, just to ease themself. Look what happens in jails for example. I don't want to go to deep in that. At the end of the book Anne Proulx write about loneliness in the mountains and how the shepherds deal with that, usually going together in two. And later nobody talks about it, it's no need for that. It's possible, that it was like that with Jack a year earlier. But this time with Ennis it was different. Like Anne says - "everything got complicated cause they both lived a love, that happens only once in the lifetime." And one more thing. You may laugh, but I think there are people - men or women who may be appealing for both sexes. I think Jake is one of them. He's so charming and adorable, that when he chats with his male friends smiling in his own way he's really tempting. Of course not to everyone. And I'm not sure he's aware of that at all. Example: And Jack Twist, played by him, was like that. And Ennis fall for him and him only. In the book Jack was not so charming with his big teeth.
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Post by els on Feb 2, 2011 18:12:33 GMT -5
Indeed! Totally agree, I believe that too. Indeed! Agree with you! True Indeed
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Post by mermon on Feb 2, 2011 18:16:22 GMT -5
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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 18:21:37 GMT -5
Yes, I've said the same thing to Maria too, she's so good with words, that I can see the scenes she describes before my eyes ! Personally, I'm very sure Jack was attracted to Ennis earlier. If you look at every detail, you can see that during the potatoe peeling scene, Jack continues peeling, he knows Ennis is naked but he doesn't dare to look, however: you can see him sigh, that sigh says a lot imo I think Jack is scared to come out for his feelings for Ennis, and to peak, because he is kind of scared to "scare" him away and he doesn't want that... (on the contrary) The alcohol certainly did play a part, I think. I think Jack didn't "plan" anything, it just happend on that moment and he felt he could "grab" that moment as an opportunity, but rather instinctive than planned. Just my interpretation Yes I think the same about it: beautiful, awesome chemistry and extraordinary acting! ohh Els, thanks so mcuh again for your nice comment, at this point patatoes peeling Jack is uncorfotable as he's already feels attracted from Ennis, so he's suffer a bit, to look or not while Ennis is naked , as he didn't know how Ennis can react, Jack didn't wish to scared him, or at least he's afraid that he's homofobic why not? At least they've not know before and Ennis isn't that much comunicative,But jack IMO is quite sure about himseflt, he's clearly homosexual, and he can fairly accept his different sexuality... even if that time-'60's- wasen' fair at all with homosexual, or open in any way.It jumped to my mind the Stonewall riots but i was just on '69, so quite before Ennis and Jack meets back in '63, and surely NY is more open to hmosexual right, and car work at least, then Wyoming or othre rural states.
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Post by els on Feb 2, 2011 18:23:51 GMT -5
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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 18:29:14 GMT -5
I missed it too during the first viewing but I saw it during the second viewing, it's very subtle, but it's there It's hard to noticed you're right Els, no wonder that someone notice just in second istance viewing, For me it was simply as i've stared the enitre time at Gyllenhaal, so i noticed immediately, but i wasen't sure at all, since i've read that several other noticed too, someone dare to said that when both chatting in front of the fire, the firts time Jack and Ennis talks for a very long time, Jack sighs, staring at the chest of Ennis, when he bring near a cup of coffee to chest. ;D
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Post by eausavage on Feb 2, 2011 18:40:45 GMT -5
I read an interview with Jake and he said in his opinion Jack and Ennis didn't know they were gay, meaning that they didn't know what being gay ment. That it was just not something you were back then. And they both say so in the movie (I'm not queer. Me neither. or something along those lines). I guess could be fair viewing also in that way, even if i'm not agree at all with Gyllenhaal, i mean tha Jack clearly find ineretsing in Ennis, and feels that Ennis din't dislike his attention, Jack make different try, in different way, he try some evolution on horse to catch Ennis attention, he's staring Ennis thru review mirror while he's shaving, he's try to be funny and chatting a lot, in different way Jack try to impress Ennis. And Ennis didn't disklieke him as well, he've immediately aks for soup istead of beans when Jack claery say he's fed up eating beans, he've killed deer as dur to bear, Ennis lost mosty of the food suppliers,he've accept to stay at night up mountain with the flock, reversing the shift, because Jack was tired of sleeping in the cold. So what i think is that bboth didn't know for sure that this bodn, this feeling, this love could last for an entire life, they didn't know what would have happened, maybe,at first, just a one shot experience that last just for summer work on Brokeback, but movie show that things get deeply fastly....<3
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